Never Again

Add to Technorati Favourites
Add to
Wednesday, July 29, 2009

Freedom of Bias vs. Freedom of Facts

Posted by JewishRefugee

1. You start by making an assumption about a subject or an object.

2. Then over the course of time you start to have people who are telling you that the assumptions are really true. And because of their position in the society people at large believe them.

3. Eventually because you see the subject or an object (externally) that makes you forget what is not seen (internally).

The visible the tangible obviously displaces the invisible and the intangible. So why bother with something you cannot see when you have so many of those that you can see,, and so forth.

The truth is being forgotten!

If you are stating the truth, the passage of time has no effect. Truth does not change in the course of time. But if you make an assumption, it?s your own idea; it?s your own opinion; with the course of time almost inventible you going to have to start lying. Because you are going to have to bolster your argument, particularly because people are starting to question; so in order to quell the people they had intensify the argument. And when that does not work then they have to again amplify the argument, ?if you do not do that then you are really in trouble.? Time is enemy of falsehood; time is not the enemy of truth. Truth becomes truer with passage of time. It was true yesterday the day before, it is true today, and truth loves time. Truth gets stronger with time but falsehood is afraid of time because time wears it down so it is inevitable that you are going to have to continue upping the ante and eventually you are going to have to start torturing people. Just like communism in the Former Soviet Union or when the Nazi?s gave a death penalty to those who would help Jews. After all, not every German was a Nazi. That is history, eventually if the people are rising against your assumptions; you as a ruler will have to start torturing people. Because how else do you keep a falsehood going. You only can fool people for so long and after you fool them you start exterminating them.

At the end of the day, the notion that the "Western World (U.S.A.) is hated because of Israel" is false. To the contrary, Israel is hated because of the Western World. An excellent question would be WHY!

It is simple

Israel is a democratic state that follows the rule of law.
Rule of Law has several factors:

1. Identity as a citizen
2. Voting as the primary action or behavior of the citizen
3. Regular political competition and contestation for power
4. Lively Party System
5. Orderly transition of power, finally;
6. Loyal Opposition

In other words, it is the only Western Style country in the Middle East. The Middle Eastern Governments feel threatened by Israel being in the middle and what it represents. If the majority of the Middle Eastern countries have a free vote tomorrow you will see those governments removed. My heart goes with the people of Iran who have been cheated during the recent elections thus breaking the fundamental principles of the Rule of Law. Not only they were cheated, they were not even allowed to peacefully protest.

Women in Israel have all the rights that are enjoyed in the Western Style Democracies. I hope I do not have to go into detail about the horrendous treatment of women in the Middle East.

Tolerances vs. Intolerance there are about 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel (Green Line). On the other hand if you count the Jewish population in the Middle East except Israel you will not count more than couple of hundreds of people in each country with an exception of Iran (20,000-25,000). Furthermore, since 1948-present there has been 850,000 Jewish Refugees from those lands. The question is how come no one talks about those refugees or the reparations for those refugees?

How come I cannot go to some Arab countries because I have an Israeli stamp in my U.S. Passport? I would really like to see some of the old places in those lands. After all there were indigenous Jewish communities for thousands of years residing in those places.

We as Americans should be proud of our contributions for the State of Israel, the forefront of Western values in the Middle East and remember that no relationship is a one way street; Israel taking from U.S. and that’s it. There is so much that the United States and humanity at large receives back from Israel; from basic things like cell-phones innovations and computer parts to alternative energy like solar panels and advanced search algorithms for Google. If I am not mistaking, the U.S. congress in 1998, has said that the Israeli intelligence services have provided more information than the CIA. I do not think you have to be financial analysts to figure out of what amount of money (in billions) we are talking about. It is wrong for us to make assumptions that are baseless.

That said, people who make assumptions that are baseless and erroneous are at best ignorant or at worse .....??

I have tried to use completely different angles that might have contributed to a little bit of chaos. But this subject is huge and equally important that this paper, book, or for that matter hundredth of books would not be enough to cover the real situation on the ground. But what I do want you take out of this (of course if you read it) whether you agree or disagree with me is a question; perhaps a desire for a question; to challenge what I have said or at least be a little bit more aware of the reality on the ground in the future. We all have personal lives (family, school, jobs, and so forth) we are bombarded with information 24/7 but that does not give us a right to remain ignorant. Just because you do not know a law it does not mean you are exempt if you break it.

If you have questions or comments please don’t hesitate to write me back.

Falsehood versus Truth comes from Rabbi Friedman.
The other information come from variety of other sources.

Bookmark and Share


Posted by JewishRefugee

Dr. Steve Carol

Throughout the six decades since the re-establishment of Israel, an often repeated claim in made that “Israel is a draining liability on the United States.” This claim is bogus and an examination of the facts hopefully will consign this charge to the trash-heap where it belongs.

Further adding to the problem are statements made by and the conduct of Israel's leftist leaders since 1993 create the false impression that Israeli-American ties constitute a one-way relationship. The impression is given that the U.S. gives and Israel merely receives and thus must constantly bow to “American pressure” as personified by the U.S. State Department.

The truth is that the relationship is a two-way partnership. For example:

• In 1952, as the Cold War got underway, U.S. Army Chief-of-Staff Omar Bradley called for the integration of Israel into the Mediterranean Basin area, in light of the country's location and unique capabilities.

• In 1967, Israel defeated a radical Arab, pro-Soviet offensive, which threatened to bring about the collapse of pro-American Arab regimes and disrupt oil supply, thus severely undermining the American standard of living. The U.S. gained valuable military information from analysis of captured Soviet equipment, including SAM-2, SAM-12, Mig-21 aircraft, and Soviet T-54 battle tanks. In fact, Israel gave an entire squadron of MiG-21s to the U.S. which was dubbed the “Top Gun” squadron and used by the U.S. Air and Naval forces for training purposes. Since 1967, Israel transferred captured Soviet weapons systems to the U.S. Pentagon after every conflict: 1967, 1967-70, 1973, 1982, 1990 (Scud remnants from the Gulf War), and 2006 (remnants of Iranian supplied missiles.

• In the 1967-1970 1000 Day War of Attrition, the IDF, armed with American aircraft successfully defeated a Soviet-supplied air defense system, pointing out the deficiencies in Soviet air-defense doctrine to US defense planners. Israel shared captured military equipment include P-2 radar and Soviet tanks with the U.S. military.

• In 1970, Israel brought about the withdrawal of Syrian forces from Jordan, at a time when the U.S. was tied up by wars in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, thus preventing the fall of the pro-American Hashemite regime and the installation of a pro-Soviet radical Palestinian terrorist regime.

• In 1973 – thanks to U.S. re-supply, but without U.S. forces, Israel defeated Soviet-trained and equipped Egyptian and Syrian forces. Israel again shared captured Soviet equipment, including T-62 battle tanks with the U.S. Israel emerged as the only reliable ally where U.S. troops could land, where U.S. equipment can be pre-positioned, where the U.S. has friendly port facilities (in Haifa and Ashdod) in the entire Middle East region. This too has saved the U.S. billions of dollars.

• 1970s - Joseph Sisco, a former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, assistant to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger during the latter’s shuttle diplomacy, told the Israeli author and military expert, Shmuel Katz: “I want to assure you, Mr. Katz, that if we were not getting full value for our money, you would not get a cent from us.”

• In 1981, Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak, delaying Saddam Hussein’s quest for nuclear weapons. It thus provided the U.S. with the option of engaging in conventional wars with Iraq in 1991 and 2003.

• The vice president General Dynamics which produces the F16 fighter jets has stated that Israel is responsible for 600 improvements in the plane's systems, modifications estimated to be worth billions of dollars, which spared dozens of research and development years.

• In 1982, Israel destroyed Soviet anti-aircraft batteries in Lebanon that were considered immune to American weapons. Israel promptly shared the operation's lessons, estimated to be worth billions of dollars.

• Former Secretary of State and NATO forces commander Alexander Haig has stated that he is pro-Israeli because Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security.

• During the first Gulf War 1991, Israel provided invaluable intelligence, an umbrella of air cover for military cargo, and had personnel planted in the Iraqi desert to pick up downed American pilots.

• General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence has publicly declared that “Israel is worth five CIA’s.” He further stated that between 1974 and 1990, Israel received $18.3 billion in U.S. military grants. During the same period Israel provided the U.S. with $50-80 billion in intelligence, research and development savings, and Soviet weapons systems captured and transferred to the U.S.

• In 2005, Israel provided America with the world's most extensive experience in homeland defense and warfare against suicide bombers and car bombs. American soldiers train in IDF facilities and Israeli-made drones fly above the "Sunni Triangle" in Iraq, as well as in Afghanistan, providing U.S. Marines with vital intelligence.

• In September 2007, the IAF destroyed a Syrian-North Korean nuclear plant, extending the US’s strategic arm. It provided the US with vital information on Russian air defense systems, which are also employed by Iran. It bolstered the US posture of deterrence and refuted the claim that US-Israel relations have been shaped by political expediency.

• In 2009, Israel shares with the US its battle-tested experience in combating Palestinian and Hizbullah terrorism, which are the role model of anti-US Islamic terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan. US GIs benefit from Israel’s battle tactics against car bombs, improvised explosive devices and homicide bombing. An Israel-like ally in the Persian Gulf would have spared the need to dispatch US troops to Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

• Israel has relayed to the U.S. lessons of battle (during the Cold War – Soviet military doctrine) and counter-terrorism (including aircraft security, homicide-suicide bombings) which reduce American losses in Iraq and Afghanistan, prevent attacks on U.S. soil, upgrade American weapons, and contribute to the U.S. economy. Without Israel, the U.S. would have been forced to deploy tens of thousands of American troops in the eastern Mediterranean Basin, at a cost of billions of dollars a year.

• Senator Daniel Inouye has recently (2005) argued Israeli information regarding Soviet arms saved the U.S. billions of dollars. The contribution made by Israeli intelligence to America is greater than that provided by all NATO countries combined, he said.

• Israel's utilization of American arms guarantees its existence, but at the same time gives U.S. military industries, such as Boeing and General Dynamics, a competitive edge compared to European industries, while also boosting American military production, producing American jobs, and improving America's national security. Japan and South Korea, for example, preferred the "Hawkeye" spy plane and the MD-500 chopper, both purchased and upgraded by Israel, over comparable British and French aircraft.

• The American industries want U.S. aid to Israel to continue. The bulk of the $1.8 billion in annual U.S. military aid to Israel must be spent in the United States. That provides jobs for some 50,000 U.S. workers. Virtually all of the $1.2 billion in annual economic aid goes for repayment of debt to the United States, incurred from military purchases dating back many years. This debt is now close to being liquidated.

• Innovative Israeli technologies have a similar effect on American civilian, including computer-related industries and agricultural industries, which view Israel as a successful research and development site.

• Members of the U.S. Congress leaders, then Vice President Dick Cheney, and then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld are aware of Israel's unique contribution to U.S. interests. But, in fact, they all wonder why the post-1993 Israel does not use its impressive contribution as leverage, in sharp contrast to the pre-1993 Israel.

• In contrast to our commitments to Korea, Japan, Germany and other parts of the world, not a single American serviceperson needs to be stationed in Israel. Considering that the cost of one serviceperson per year – including backup and infrastructure – is estimated to be about $200,000 per year, and assuming a minimum contingent of 25,000 troops, the cost savings to the United States on that score alone are on the order of $5 billion a year.

Bookmark and Share
Tuesday, July 28, 2009

Technical Update!

Posted by JewishRefugee

I have created a separate page for all the videos that used to be posted on the main page Israel Act Now. The link will take you to the page where you can find all the videos (exclusively), you can also find the tab that can take you there right under the title among home and resources tabs. There are two reasons that I have decided to do that:

1. The blog's speed had increased enormously by separating videos from the articles; that will allow you to surf the main page Israel Act Now with more ease.

2. Secondly, you can locate the videos that you might have liked in the past a lot faster.

As always, if you have any suggestion that can increase the quality of this blog you are always welcome to write me at

Jewish Refugee

Bookmark and Share
Friday, July 17, 2009

The Demographic Myth (MUST READ)

Posted by JewishRefugee

Shoula Romano Horing - Apr 18, 2008
The Kansas City Jewish Chronicle

Upon returning from the Annapolis Conference, where Ehud Olmert and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas pledged to reach a peace agreement by the end of 2008, the Prime Minister warned that failure to negotiate a two-state solution with the Palestinians would spell the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

His reasoning is based on his fear regarding the so called “demographic threat” to Israel from “a faster growing Palestinian population.” Since 2003, he has been warning that “ if a Palestinian state was not established, in just another few years, more and more Palestinians will say: “There is no place for two states between the Jordan and the sea and they would want the right to vote” and “then Israel would face a South African struggle for equal voting rights, and as soon as that happens, the state of Israel is finished.”

Such possible scenario is difficult to contemplate, because the residents of the West Bank and Gaza are not citizens of Israel, but residents of internationally disputed areas with Jordanian and Egyptian passports. These areas were never legally annexed to Israel. I cannot recollect an example in recent history where the international community forced a sovereign state to grant non-citizens the right to vote, regardless of the individual or collective wishes of its citizens.

The question still remains whether Israel should be afraid of being demographically overwhelmed and swallowed by the Palestinian population in the next 15 years.

Recently published demographic research seems to suggest that this fear has been based on fraudulent data and highly questionable predictions from the Palestinian Authority’s Central Bureau of Statistics in 1997.

In 1997, the bureau projected that the Arab population west of the Jordan River would, by 2015, outnumber the Jewish population. It pegged the 1997 Arab population of the West Bank at 2.4 million, Gaza at 1.43 million and the Israeli Arab population at 1.33 million. for a total of 5.16 million Arabs West of the Jordan River. This number was, to Zionist eyes, ominously close to Israel’s Jewish population at the time of 5.24 million.

These Arab population numbers were immediately adopted by such prominent Israeli demographers as the University of Haifa’s Arnon Soffer and the Hebrew University ‘s Sergio Della Pergola, who have both warned that by 2020 Jews will make up only between 40 and 46 percent of the overall population of Israel, plus the territories west of the Jordan River. Largely in reaction to these statistics, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, at the urging of Ehud Olmert, decided to unilaterally withdraw the Israeli army and Jewish settlements from Gaza in 2005.

The sky-is-falling crowd got a surprise in January at the Herzilya Conference with the release of a new study by California researcher Bennet Zimmerman and Israeli strategist Yoram Ettinger. It questioned the PA’s 1997 findings, citing inaccuracies in data collection and incorrect assumptions that led to predictions that ignored Arab emigration and overstated the Arab birth rate.

Their new study concluded that the Jews currently constitute 67 percent of the population west of the Jordan River, excluding Gaza. Jews would be 60 percent of the population if Gaza is included.

In 1948, the Jewish population in Palestine was only 48 percent.

Fertility falloff

The new study suggests there are only 1.4 million Palestinians in the West Bank, and not 2.4 million as the Palestinians claim. Zimmerman and Ettinger assert that the PCBS totals include double-counts like the 230,000 Arab residents of Jerusalem, and the 105,000 Palestinians who received blue Israeli cards in 1997, who were already included in the Israeli-Arab population. In addition, the data collected by the Palestinians includes 325,000 Palestinians who reside abroad. This is akin to counting the 800,000 Israeli natives who now live in the United States as part of Israel’s population.

The 300,000 Palestinian births that were predicted never occurred, and the 236,000 people predicted to move into the PA territory between 1997 and 2003 never materialized. During this time, 74,000 people left PA areas, likely prodded by Chairman Yasser Arafat’s corruption and conflict with Israel.

The new study suggests that the demographic establishment and the Israeli government prefer to also ignore the quick drop in natural growth and fertility rate among the Palestinians. According the UNRWA, the Arab fertility rate in the West Bank has plummeted from 5.4 children per woman to 3.24, while the Jewish fertility rate rose to 2.7 children per woman. Among the reasons for the drop are the introduction of family planning with 52 percent of married Arab women using birth control, a rising median age of marrying couples, higher divorce rates, better education and careers for women and the move from villages to cities. This falloff is consistent with the one taking place throughout the Muslim world.

Inside Israel, immigration from France and the former Soviet Union, coupled with a rise in the Jewish birthrate, kept the Israeli Arab population stable at 20 percent for the last dozen years. Inside the “Green Line,” or Israel’s pre-June 1967 borders, Jews make up 76 percent of the population and other non-Jewish immigrants account for another 4 percent.

Inside the city of Jerusalem, Jews make up 68 percent of the population, while the city’s fertility rate among the Jewish and Arab population is equal for the first time at 3.9 children per woman. Many researchers believe that the Jewish population in Jerusalem and inside Israel is even higher, because the Israeli Central Statistics Bureau include thousands of non-citizen Palestinian residents in the population data.

Thus, it seems that the Jewish majority is assured to continue well into the future inside Israel, Jerusalem and west of the Jordan River.

Tilting the scales

For any Israeli government to give up the strategic hills of the West Bank, thereby exposing the country’s main population centers to daily missile attacks from a future Palestinian state, and to divide Jerusalem, including the Old City, in order to get rid of the Arab neighborhoods based on unsubstantiated fears seems incredible and irresponsible.

For any government to rely on the data provided by the Palestinian Authority, which is notorious for its revisionist view of Jewish (and Arab) history, is naïve and self- destructive. It is disheartening to think that the PA’s propaganda has again been successful in manipulating Israel’s public and political debate and in psychologically intimidating the Israeli government into capitulating to the Arab agenda.

The ongoing negotiation between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which includes discussing the future of the Arab refugees who fled in the 1948 and 1967 wars to the surrounding Arab countries, will only hasten the nightmare scenario Olmert fears most.

Allowing 3 million Palestinians — the 650,000 refugees from 1948 and their descendants — to immigrate into Israel would bring an end to the Jewish state demographically, and, thankfully, no Israeli government would agree to this. However, even agreeing to let these refugees emigrate to a future Palestinian state in the West Bank will upset the demographic scale west of the Jordan River.

Historically, being numerous is not one of the Jewish people’s notable characteristics. To argue that a demographic threat justifies territorial withdrawals is similar to arguing that Israel should disband the country, close its doors and leave the Middle East based on being surrounded by numerous hostile Arabs on all sides. In response to this baseless fear, how do we explain Israel’s ability to survive and even flourish in the Middle East with a population of just 5.4 million Jews surrounded by more than 300 million Arabs?

Shoula Romano Horing was born and raised in Israel. She is an attorney, a speaker and a radio talk show host. Her e-mail address is

Bookmark and Share
Monday, July 13, 2009

Imperialist Israel

Posted by JewishRefugee

It is really pathetic when media, politicians, and just every day people refer to Israel as an Imperialist or Expansionist occupier. If this is the case than Israel is worst Imperial occupier in the world because it comprises of less than 1% of the Middle East; I cannot even see Israel on the World Map. All I see is a dot and number that refers to a key in which Israel is written after that number.

So the next time when someone refers to Israel as an expansionist entity, for sake of common sense correct them because it is very insulting. After all we live in the 21st century, if you want to see an empire Google Greek, Roman, Ottoman, and other expansionist Empires.

For those of you who are still struggling with the idea that Israel is not an expansionist empire I will try to put things in better perspective.

1. Israel is slightly smaller than the State New Jersey

2. Israel land area is: 20,330 sq km compare the world 148.94 million sq km; compare to France 640,053 sq km; compare to Egypt land: 995,450 sq km: compare to Russia land: 16,995,800 sq km; compare to Great Britain land: 241,590 sq km; compare to Jordan 91,971 sq km: compare to U.S. 9,161,923 sq km.

3. The land area of Israel by size is surpassing countries like Swaziland, Micronesia, Cayman Islands, Liechtenstein, British Virgin Islands, and other nascent countries.

4. It’s like comparing the size of the earth to the size of sun.

I hope by putting things in perspective it will help those who humiliate the real expansionist empires such as Russian, Persian, or British Empires.

If you have any questions or concerns regarding Israel not being an Imperialist or Expansionist entity please do not hesitate to e-mail me at I know it can be difficult at times to use common sense but it does not mean we can remain ignorant. In fact opposite is true.

Bookmark and Share

1967 – 1949 = 18

Posted by JewishRefugee

Two States for Two Peoples; Two State Solution; No Apartheid; and Self-Determination

Those slogans represent an important declaration for an establishment of the second Arab-Palestinian State (first being Trans-Jordan; Jordan; Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan). But I am not going to discuss the point; because of the Jordan, Arab-Palestinians do not deserve a second state. I will try to discuss this reason from a different perspective; so for a second forget about that the Two State Solution is already implemented. Let us start from the scratch; there is a tiny strip of land from Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River. Two Peoples, Jews not Israelis and Arabs not Palestinians have a conflict amongst each other regarding the control of that land.

Majority of the world side of the story:
On November 29, 1947, the United Nations “General” Assembly approved a plan; Resolution 181 note to resolve “Arab”-“Jewish” “Conflict” by partitioning the remaining 22% of the British Mandate of Palestine into two States, one “Jewish” and one “Arab.”

Jewish Side of the Story:

We accept the Partition

Arab Side of the Story:

We oppose the Partition

The outcome of the disagreement between the Arabs and the World was a military invasion of 7 Arab Nations onto the 650,000 people newly established Jewish State. The period between 1948 through 1949 became known as the Israel’s War of Independence.

The territorial outcome of the war was that Egypt “occupied” Gaza Strip and Jordan “occupied Judea and Samaria (distorted name West Bank). This territorial arrangement is also referred to as the pre-1967 borders to which the European Union, Russia, China, United States, and other U.N. members are aspiring Israel to return and establish a second Palestinian state on Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

Question #1:
How come the so called Palestinians (Arab) did not revolt or commit suicide attacks against the occupiers of the so-called Palestinian Land for the sake of Self-Determination? I mean after all, Egypt and Jordan occupied Gaza and Judea and Samaria (West Bank) not Israel.

Before I ask another question I would like to include another historical event that took place.

After the Egyptians closed the Strait of Tiran (Declaration of War); after Syria day and night bombarded Jewish farms in the North of Israel from the Golan Heights (Declaration of War); after Egypt and Syria amassed military equipment with Soviet Union’s help close to the Israeli Borders (Declaration of War); after Egyptians expelled the United Nations Peace Keepers from Sinai Peninsula that were supposed to be there to make sure that war does not erupt in the first place (so much for U.N. peace keepers they leave when they are actually needed). Well after several declarations of wars Israel has finally came to its sanity and launched a pre-emptive attack on the aggressors. Even though Jordan was warned not to intervene; they attacked Israel. Even though the war is called the Six-Day War it was actually the Six-Hour War since Egyptian and Syrian Air Force was destroyed within hours of the defensive Israeli attack.

The territorial outcome of the defensive war Israel acquired:

1. Jewish People had finally United Jerusalem
2. Jewish People liberated Judea and Samaria from Jordanians
3. Jewish People liberated Golan Heights from Syria
4. Jewish People liberated Gaza Strip
5. Jewish People acquired Sinai Peninsula
From historical perspective the liberated lands were the major military invasion points for all the invaders of the Jewish Country. Let go back to our analysis of the outcomes; the Arabs were extremely infuriated due to the embarrassing losses incurred. They thought long and they though hard and the came up with a good strategy.

1. Emergence of the Palestinian Nation
2. Pre-1967 borders for the Palestinian State
3. Jerusalem as they Capital of the Palestinian State

“The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. “

Zuheir Mohsen Palestinian leader of the Syria-controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979

Question #2
So how come the so-called Palestinians did not create a Palestinian State between 1949 and 1967; they had 18 years to do so?

Bookmark and Share